Into the Digital Future: Navigating Mental Health, Diversity, and Technology with Dr. Erlanger Turner

In this episode of ‘Into the Digital Future,’ hosts Jordan Shapiro and Laura Higgins delve deeper into the intersection of mental health, diversity, and technology with Dr. Erlanger Turner, founder and executive director of Therapy for Black Kids and author of Raising Resilient Black Kids. Dr. Turner,discusses the unique challenges faced by Black teenagers and the ways in which digital platforms can serve both as sources of support and stress. Highlights include the benefits and drawbacks of social media for marginalized communities, strategies for parents to maintain healthy social media use for their teens, and practical advice for creating inclusive and safe online spaces.

This transcript of the Into the Digital Future podcast has been edited for clarity. Please listen to the full episode here, and learn more about the season. 

 

Earl Turner: I’m Dr. Erlanger Turner, also known as Dr. Earl. I’m a licensed psychologist, author, professor, and media contributor. And I’m also the founder and executive director of Therapy for Black Kids, which is an organization focused on promoting resilience and healthy development among black youth. 

Jordan Shapiro: Really glad to have you here, Dr Earl.

We do so much talking here about kids’ well-being, usually in relation to the digital world. We’ve had so many different experts who are experts on child development, experts on teenagers and emotion, experts on adolescence, and one thing that really is missing is that we talk about all teenagers as if they’re like one, one giant group of people that are all the same. And of course, we talk about small gender differences here and there, but we really don’t talk about specific populations.

So, I’m really interested if you could tell us a bit about your work. What fascinates me about it is obviously there are real distinct concerns for black teenagers and adolescents in terms of mental health, and I obviously don’t know that much about it.

So hopefully you could tell us a bit about what that work that you do, why you do it, and what people should know about it. 

Earl Turner: Yeah. I think the point about mental health among all youth is definitely important and there are a lot of similarities in terms of the challenges that you’ve experienced.

That’s just sort of part of normal development. But I do think that for youth of color, and particularly my work centers mostly around African American and Black youth,  there are some unique experiences that they may have that are very different from their counterparts, in particular white teens.

And a lot of my work has really started primarily focusing on understanding attitudes and perceptions around mental health service use within the black community. And we know that for black youth, they oftentimes are less likely to receive care compared to other communities. And so really trying to understand what I can do in my role from a public education perspective and from my own research is, how can we improve those attitudes and reduce some of that stigma to make sure that these youth are getting access to services.

Because we know that some of those challenges that they may experience definitely impact them differently in terms of their mental health and one common or issue that we see happening consistently over time is the ways that they experience hate or racial discrimination and that does have a huge impact on their mental health. That discrimination happens in multiple spaces, whether it’s within the school environment in their communities, and even in the digital space in terms of social media, so those are some really important issues that we have to talk about. 

Jordan Shapiro: I wonder if you could say a bit, if you had to just say to people who really haven’t thought about this at all, like what would some of the less obvious challenges be? Like discrimination, of course, I think everybody can wrap their head around that idea really but what about the sort of subtle discrimination, the subtle effects of code switching, things like that that people are dealing with, that I imagine many of our listeners, they don’t even consider.

Earl Turner: Yeah, that’s a really important point. So, I think another piece to that angle for me is also understanding intersectionality and different aspects of someone’s identity. So yes, being black in America comes with its own sort of challenges, but we know that, girls, black girls tend to be overly sexualized. Even when they’re not trying to be, they’re perceived in that type of way by adults, and we see boys that are oftentimes being perceived as being overly aggressive. And so that impacts them in terms of risk for increased likelihood of suspension within the school environment. We also see some of the challenges around LGBTQI as well. And so those are issues that, oftentimes are not even talked about when it comes to the experiences of LGBT youth and the amounts of hate homophobia that they experience not only outside of their community, but sometimes even their homes are not safe. And I think those are also some really important conversations to talk about.

Yes, LGBT youth have very different experiences. Some have really positive experiences within their homes, but we also know that there are also sometimes, hateful comments. Sometimes it’s just a misunderstanding within communities. And I think, another challenge that comes up for me is that I think sometimes for Black parents, when they have a child that does come out as being, LGBTQ, is that they are concerned about the child’s safety.

And so those are some of the things that make them a little bit more protective around their child actually, disclosing their sexuality. 

Laura Higgins: Yeah, absolutely. That really resonates with me as you can probably hear I’m based in the UK, not in the US and just reflecting on what that experience, for friends of mine and people that I’ve worked with over my career.

We have very similar issues, but they’re also really distinctly different. And whilst there’s belonging and the discriminatory stuff, we actually have some focus on young black people’s experience of the health service here in the UK. Our health is very different than it is in North America in terms of, we have our national health service but actually the success rate opportunity for maternity is really poor, particularly within the black community.

And access to good education here. We do have this situation where the kids just, you know, generally, don’t get the opportunity to attend the so-called good schools. And so right from the offset, that sort of happens here, but I do understand it’s a very different cultural experience that is happening in the U S. It’s really interesting to hear.

Yeah, you have a new book out. So Raising Resilient Black Kids: A Parent’s Guide to Helping Children Cope with Racial Stress, Manage Emotions and Thrive. I love that title. One of the things we really focus on in my work at Roblox is about helping people thrive in online spaces and beyond. Tell us a little bit about the book, but really what does thriving look like for you?

Earl Turner: Yeah, thank you for that. It’s actually a really interesting process of coming up with a title for a book. I learned a lot about that process. But for me, thriving is really having this sense of well-being in the midst of dealing with challenges or negativity. And I think for many people, and particularly youth, that it’s really hard to thrive when you’re constantly dealing with all of these things that are going on in society and in our communities.

How can we have the tools to be able to manage some of our stressors that we’re experiencing in society and be able to live some of this sense of well-being? Not to say that you won’t have those difficult days, but that in the midst of those, that those days are not going to really disrupt your life in ways that are really challenging for you to ever even navigate.

Laura Higgins: I’ve got the quote, the rose that grows through concrete in my head right now. 

Jordan Shapiro: On this podcast we focus on digital media. We focus on social media. We focus on video games and the metaverse and I guess I’d be curious to know what your what’s your take on it? As you work with teens, as you interact with adolescents, as you interact with the youth you know what do you see? We all see, we all hear all the media against it. And some of that’s comes from a good place , and some of that comes from a moral panic. I’d be curious to know what you can tell us about what you actually see outside of the headlines and the buzzwords…

Earl Turner: That’s a really good question. I think one of the things that we have to realize about social media and technology is that oftentimes it is a replication of what we see in real life.

One of my colleagues has used the term digital neighborhood, so that’s not something that belongs to me, but I like that term because I think it really does mimic what we see in real life and that we have to recognize that. Kids are not in this vacuum when they’re on social media platforms. These are also things that are happening in society and communities in our schools and so I think we have to understand how they are navigating this digital space.

It’s also important to how they’re navigating things within real life. And we want to make sure that they have the awareness to really understand, information that they’re consuming on those platforms and that parents are also involved in some of those conversations. I think one of the really important things that I talk about is, when you send your kid out in the community, you don’t just say, okay, I’ll see you when you get back home, right?

You give them some type of advice or suggestions about what places not to do an encounter, who to not talk to engage with. And so, I think when we come to the digital neighborhood that we sometimes get lost in that, oh, my teen is on this phone on this platform. I don’t know what they’re doing, I don’t know how to talk with them about this. It’s like, how can you also engage in some digital literacy yourself so that you understand what’s going on and that you prepare your child to also navigate that space. 

Laura Higgins: Thank you. That’s my whole job so that makes me really happy. And it’s a huge challenge and particularly getting in front of.

People all over the world of all different demographics. We always talk about the fact that there’s digital literacy, there’s people all over the world whose parents are not even literate, so getting those messages across, they’re not, they’re going to read a website to go and download a resource and learn these things.

We have to be really creative about how we get those important messages across. I think you’ve answered this, but we’ve seen, over the last years. A huge amount of focus, really quite negative focus on teens and adolescents and the correlation or not of poor mental health based on social media, scrolling, deep scrolling, all that stuff.

And we’ve seen fairly recently calls for out and out bans on social media or banning cell phones and things. What’s your take on that? It feels like maybe you’re not in favor, but yeah, interesting topic. I’d love to get your view. 

Earl Turner: Yeah, it is a really interesting topic. I think, if it comes to a ban that it’s going to be challenging to enforce that.

I think I’m a realis.  I think when we come up with all of these policies or rules, it’s who’s going to enforce this outside of just having this law about not having access to the platform. For me, it really is recognizing both the pros and cons of social media and technology in the lives of teens. And as I mentioned before that, oftentimes it is a replication of what is happening in real life. If you’re thinking that social media is “ruining,” the child’s life, what are these things that happen in our society? Are we addressing those things that are also, you know, impacting, teens’ lives as well. For me, it really is recognizing the good and the bad of social media. I wrote a blog a couple of years ago in Psychology Today. And one of the things that I noted was some research from the Pew Research Center around some of the ways that teens see benefits in social media.

The majority of teens find that social media is actually helpful for them. I’m looking at my notes here that I wrote down —68 percent of teens say that social media actually has helped them to feel supported through tough times. Imagine that we take this away from those teens, how are they going to feel supported now, and that goes back to my earlier point that I mentioned around let’s say LGBT youth, for example, is that in a lot of times they don’t have that support or that, sense of community or connection. Social media provides that way for them to actually stay connected as well. And then another piece that is important is, teens also find it difficult to give up social media.

I know that part of the conversation comes in around teens being “addicted,” for example. But I think outside of that, over half of teens also report that they would find it very hard to give that up. And I know in a lot of states in the US right now, schools are actually banning access to phones or social media throughout the school day.

And I definitely understand the need to do that. I grew up in a time frame where we didn’t have phones in school. I think that’s important because you want to focus on the learning, but also, I think you’re potentially creating some additional problems because now teens are going to be thinking about these phones and are still being distracted.

What do we do to really make sure that we’re addressing the meat of the problem?

Laura Higgins: And I would just say just for reference, Jordan and I grew up in a time where they weren’t cell phones. Period.

Jordan Shapiro: I didn’t like that comment, Laura. But it’s true. But I love what you’ve said, and my view on this is well-promoted. And while I’m not going to deny that there have been lots of kids who have ended up with really poor mental health outcomes because of their relationship with social media and their experience on social media, we also know that there are enormous amounts of positive experiences. People have been able to find affinity groups, whether those are identity-based affinity groups or hobby affinity groups or eating disorder groups, right? We know how many people are being helped by that. Where do you see the ways in which we could be using the potential of not just social media, but all online interactions— what are we not doing yet?

It seems to me there really is the potential for so much incredible social justice work, activism, that could happen through social media. And some of it is, of course, but where do you think we’re missing? Where do you think we’re still missing the target? 

Earl Turner: Yeah, that’s a really important question. Before I answer that, I want to go back to your point about the ways that a lot of conversations have talked about how social media is negative and creative and have problems and, increasing, risk of eating disorders, for example. And I understand those connections, but also as a scientist and researcher, I know that most of that research and data is not correlational, so we’re understanding these relationships. We don’t know if the eating disorder, the mental problem, came first, and that is driving them to spending more time on social media, which some of the research speaks to in that manner. I think we have to really do a better job as researchers with really understanding like what comes first, in terms of, is it that, kids are spending this much time on social media, they’re getting disconnected, they’re getting concerned with misinformation or inappropriate information and so that’s leading to some of these problems. And that can help us better answer that connection between social media and these mental health challenges.

But I think one of the things that is really important that we may be missing in terms of how we can use social media for good is, when it comes to the algorithm and I know this comes up a lot in conversations —and I don’t understand the algorithm, even though I’ve done some consultation work with some tech companies.

But I do think that what information is pushed out that, there can be much more intention placed on that in particular, when we have experts in the fields of pediatrics, mental health that are pushing out content or creating content around some ways to help people understand themselves from a health and mental health perspective, and that information may not get disseminated or shared.

As often as things that may be talking about things that may be traumatizing or potentially triggering. I think those are some of the ways that you know some of these companies could do a better job about how they leverage that expertise of those professionals and making sure that content is shared, even with just their audience, because I know sometimes, I will post content, and I see like I get 100 views or something like that.

It’s okay, this is not going anywhere. How can that content be sent out to the public more so that way they can have the tools to really understand some of these things and even misuse of terminology that I think, in the general public, one of the things that is very important I don’t want to say triggering, but problematic for me is this misuse and overuse of “trauma.” Everything is trauma. And that’s not the case in terms of how we think about it in terms of mental health. 

Laura Higgins: I love that. And hopefully I can make you happy just to reassure you there is some really good stuff happening behind closed doors. We’re part of a group, which is a multi-agency, multi-stakeholder, all lots of tech companies involved as well as NGOs and not for profits.

It’s led by the United Nations, and it’s called Protection Through Online Participation, and it is really focused on young people’s voice and finding out where they seek support in online spaces about real world issues. So real world violence, domestic abuse, self-injury and suicidal concerns.

Those are not normal topics that somebody might look on Roblox or TikTok for but we know that they are. There is a piece of work and specifically looking at how we can use those algorithms to best effect to raise up those support services to make sure that young people get that in the moment support that they need.

There really is work happening, but I agree with you. It’s a little too late. And we have a lot more to do. On that point, how do we make sure you know from a tech, I work in the tech industry, how do we make sure us and other stakeholders, the policy makers and law enforcement and everyone else, educators, we’re looking at you too, but how do we make sure that we build these really inclusive, safe, welcoming spaces and just being mindful about all demographics.

All different cultures and the people that come in our platform, like for us, we appreciate that on roadblocks, we have a group of young people with neurodivergence who are creating experiences. So, we’ve started working with autism groups in the U S and the UK to get a better understanding of how we support those families.

That’s one example. What else can we do? What do we need to do to be better? 

Earl Turner: Yeah, first, thanks for sharing that. I think that’s really great work. And I think that there are a lot of tech companies that are trying to do some things to help address this sort of issue and challenge that we’re dealing with in society.

In my own work I’ve worked, with some companies as well and I won’t. Through the sort of promotion of those companies, but I will say that there are some tech companies that are providing sort of resources and guides for parents to understand some of these pieces, how to have healthy conversations, with their teams about this.

And I think one of the things that I talk about a lot is, how do you maintain that line of communication with your team? Around why they’re using social media. I think a lot of times it is that you’re telling a kid. You don’t need to be on this phone. You don’t need to] be on this application, etc.

But we don’t try to explain why they wanted to be on those things. I think that’s an important piece of that conversation. But going back to your question, I think that one of the things that can be helpful is trying to engage stakeholders as much as possible. And I realized that is a.

A resource, you know that it requires a lot of resources to be able to do that. But I think that’s important to the success of these platforms is trying to make sure that the stakeholders are involved in those conversations and so whether it is the professionals that are doing this work, I have this sort of expertise or knowledge, but also getting information from teens and parents around what are some of the challenges that they’re seeing? And what are some of the ways that they’ve been able to navigate those and help the way? And can you create some ways to do that also in some of these applications?

Because I do think that for some parents, they’ve been able to figure out ways about how you manage or help your teen rather than manage their time on social media. And, are you doing those things? I think a big piece for me is making sure that as parents, you model healthy engagement with social media and technology.

Sometimes as adults, I think we don’t do that either. But then we expect our teens to be able to set some boundaries around it. I think a big piece of it is modeling that as well. I think those can be other ways around how these tech companies and platforms work with parents to give them some tools because I think for a lot of parents it’s like they don’t understand or know, and sometimes they don’t care to know.

But I do think that when you are parenting a teen, that it requires some sort of different role for you. And I realize you know that as parents, I say this all the time parents don’t come with a manual, right? You have to figure things out as you go. There is some learning that’s required for you along the way as well to engage in healthy parenting. Those are some ways that I think tech companies can really support parents along this journey. 

Laura Higgins: Amazing. Thank you. 

Jordan Shapiro: I couldn’t agree more that parenting is really difficult, especially because you don’t have a manual.

I recently had to have a long talk with my teenager, one of my teenage sons. And I said, it’s really a terrible thing. You get no practice, and the stakes are so high, and you make mistakes and if you have more than one kid, they’re different people, so it’s not like the practice helped, right?

It’s hard and it’s a lot, even someone like me that’s a parenting expert, like it’s constantly difficult, right? It’s constantly difficult. It’s constantly painful. I have lots of nights with lots of tears and lots of anxiety for myself. Which leads me to our final question, which is we’ve seen that you say protect your peace -this is something you say. So, what do you do to protect your peace? 

Earl Turner: I think protecting your peace is really important in the digital space. For me personally, that means that I sometimes have to be really intentional about disengaging. I know that for some people, and particularly for teens, that it could be really difficult to log off or to uninstall an app on your phone because you feel like you’re missing out on something.

I remind myself that if I don’t see it because I’m not there for days or weeks, it’s still there on the internet, so it will come back to you. And oftentimes they will see posts that pop up and it was like, oh, this was in 2000 and 22. I think just remind yourself that if you do decide to take a social media break for however amount of time, that the content is still going to be there so you’re not really missing out on anything you may not miss you may not get it, at that sort of timely moment as breaking news per se, but it’s still going to be there and so I think that’s one way to help me for protect my piece is being able to disengage.

I also think about how you engage with content? Even if you decide not to physically not log on to the platform, there can be ways that you don’t engage with content. If you see a video that says it’s sensitive content, read the caption, decide to keep scrolling as opposed to clicking on it and then, oh, you read it or you see it and I probably shouldn’t have watched this.

I think that’s another way that you protect your peace as well. A really important thing I think that is helpful is, how do you do some evaluation of the content that you are following? I think there may be time periods where I follow a lot of news pages. So it may be that with the election season, for example, that I might unfollow those news platforms because I don’t want to get any news at that moment until I decide to look it up and I can always put in their name, and I can find that content. I think that’s another strategy that could be helpful to protect your peace — are there platforms or are there creators or organizations that produce certain types of content that in general is helpful for you? But at this particular moment in your life, you decide that I’m not going to engage with that content. And I can always come back to it later. So that would be another suggestion that I would think about in terms of protecting your piece. 

Laura Higgins: Such helpful advice. I’m just thinking about what I see on my own platforms because I do try to manage it.

But because my area of focus and Jordan this will probably resonate with you as well. It’s like I was on LinkedIn yesterday, and every other post was about mental health or being and actually made me feel more anxious because it’s like, wow, everybody’s having such a bad time we need to give top tips for managing your well-being.

And I was like, okay, I really need to get a grip on what’s happening and there’s the algorithms, but it’s what I’ve asked. There’s a really good example of how I need to protect my peace a bit more. 

Earl Turner: Absolutely. 

Jordan Shapiro: Thank you so much, Dr. Earl. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. It’s been a pleasure getting to know you. Is there anything else you want to say that we haven’t asked you about? 

Earl Turner: I would just go back to the idea about making sure that you’re engaging in healthy social media use. And obviously whatever that means in terms of “healthy” is something that you define for yourself.

But I think making sure the amount of time that you spend on platforms, who are you following, who are you engaging with? And it really having a conversation with your teens around some of that as well, in terms of, are there things that they find to be distressing for them? And so maybe that’s a point of conversation for you as a parent to say, maybe you want to take a break from following this page for a little while. I would say it’s all about moderation. We talk a lot about moderation, a lot of aspects of our lives. I think for healthy social media usage, you also want to think about it in that way.